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Discussion Starter #1
Took awhile to finally post this. :eek:

As with others posting about the factory Pioneer system (upgrade with sub) others have made comments about the lack of high frequency if any coming from the tweeters.

I took on the challenge to measure the output of the factory system, as I was in the audio business I have Pro measurement systems. Praxis,Sound Easy plus MLSSA. These acoustic measurement systems are some of the best of the best available.

I did some research and found the factory Pioneer upgrade system from GMC uses a speaker components (Mid woofer in the door and a tweeter in the window pillar) which is around 95db sensitive.

Understanding Loudspeaker Sensitivity http://www.goodsound.com/features/2008_02_01.htm


The challenge was to find a component speaker system which was close to this of the Pioneer GMC as possible,yet keep the cost down.

After looking around I found a dealer local who sells Hertz and the ESK 165 was in stock I had them install a set in the front speaker locations only.




I never had any other changes just replace the speakers. I can go on, as I am sure others will about using products like Dyna mat to dampen the doors.But I wanted to do this as a speaker swap ONLY.




A few things as this goes on.

I will show measurements of the factory Pioneer system as well as the HERTZ ESK 165.
This was able to be done because as the audio installation shop was changing out the speakers they allowed me into the shop with my measurement system to measure before and after installation.

This way people can see what happens just from changing the speakers out.




Note !!! If you are going to replace the speakers make sure you get a speaker set with at least 94db sensitivity.Understanding Loudspeaker Sensitivity http://www.goodsound.com/features/2008_02_01.htm


Yellow marker shows the higher frequency of the Pioneer factory speaker components, looses output after 2000hz.
89db output at 1000khz to 77db output at 10,000khz

Red marker shows Hertz upgraded component speaker has a over all lower out put (demands a higher volume setting from the tuner) over the stock pioneer system.BUT is over all smoother plus more upper frequency response.
83db output at 1000khz to 73db output at 10,000khz




These measurements were done with PRAXIS measurement system in the vehicle with the Mic not moving but left at the drivers right ear level.

This is measurements of a speaker design I use to sell (no longer in the audio business) called the APEX LCRi.

This measurement shows how smooth (flat) a proper designed speaker can look.Yes this is a home speaker but just wanted to show how measurements can look.


Moving the tweeter out of the pillar and onto the dash is a far better solution. MORE OUTPUT.



As shown I have since removed the HERTZ tweeters from the factory location and placed them on the dash.
In the next few weeks I will take some RTA (Real Time Analysis) measurements with more info on a location for the tweeters.

Over all a great improvement. Till I tear apart the doors and install damping material then redo the measurements.

 

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overall thats some decent info. I dont think most people will f ind much use for that other than knowing that they change out speakers with an amplified factory system.

Im sure you know that the dips at 400 and 800 hz are most likely due to equalization built into the factory amp. those can be smoothed out by using a DSP and then aftermarket amps.

The tweeters on the dash might sound better, but sheesh are they ugly. Also, since they are higher frequency speakers you can hear their origin and angle much easier than the mids. I have always been a fan of putting tweeters into the kick panels, and then adding extra tweeters in the a-pillar but aimed toward the windshield.
 

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Great info RAW2u!. I was in the business, and did car audio as a hobby as well. As far as having tweeters in the kickpanel....a definate newbie mistake, as you never want to have your high frequencies eminating from below your soundstage. Higher frequencies are not omnidirectional, like bass.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Thanks
Yes the tweeters work best when ever possible at ear height or alignment, not reflecting off a window :eek:

Below are a few designed speakers I designed , made complete as well sold in kit form.
So yes I do know a few things about frequency response, time alignment to say the least.





I have plans to molding the tweeters into the window plastic , the tweeters are just placed on the dash right now with window glassing tape.It works great and comes off with no damage or residue left.

For those wanting to do the upgrade, do it. Just look at the specs of what ever speaker set you are looking at purchasing,make sure the SPL rating is above 94db. Stay away from anything lower than 90 endless you are placing a amplifier to those speakers, due to factory power in the system is not powerful enough to drive the speakers to a modest listening level if you use speakers rated below 90db.
 

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wow, nice units there, great job. Sorry, I was referring to Dave25's comment about tweeter placement in the kickpanel, not yours.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I was also referring to Dave25's comment ;D

Thanks for the kind words. And these are the small speakers I use to sell :eek: :eek:

The best for time alignment of the drivers is to have them as close together as possible.In the real world this is impossible 90% of the time.
So placement can be challenging.
 

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i really like that pair in the bottom picture. Nice unit. Are those 6" drivers?
 

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Discussion Starter #8
KANWAR said:
i really like that pair in the bottom picture. Nice unit. Are those 6" drivers?
;D
Those are my Apex III which use
4-7" drivers
3-4.5" mid drivers !! 2 on the front and one on the back up at the top running full range with a l pad to control output based on the room as well as placement.
1-Ribbon tweeter made for me.

The speakers were tuned to 26hz. And yes they have a lot of authority in the lower frequency.
 

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wow, nice work sir. do you have a web site with your speakers on it?
 

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Discussion Starter #10

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RAW2u said:
Thanks
Yes the tweeters work best when ever possible at ear height or alignment, not reflecting off a window :eek:
I like my tweeters in the kick panels to get the ear to tweeter distance as similar as possible (cars arent as easy as home theatre for this) but then because of how low the sound stage ends up being I use ambient tweeters in the a-pillars. when you reflect it off the windshield it makes the high frequencies more omnidirectional.

if youve never done it, dont knock it. Ive done many tests in different vehicles and Ive found this setup to sound the best.

BTW your custom built speakers look really nice. you seem to be very skilled with speakers.
 

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Excellent thread, thanks RAW2u and others for sharing some ideas!
Some real nice work there, RAW2u!
Thanks for the forum link too.
 

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Nice work!! I have the exact same component set. How do you think they would sound on my stock (non-pioneer) system? Worth the hassle or wait to gut everything and do it right? How well did the tweeters fit inside the A-pillars? Any issues with fitment in the doors? Thanks.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
reako said:
Nice work!! I have the exact same component set. How do you think they would sound on my stock (non-pioneer) system? Worth the hassle or wait to gut everything and do it right? How well did the tweeters fit inside the A-pillars? Any issues with fitment in the doors? Thanks.
Yes change out the factory speakers, well worth the effort for sure.Personal preference I would not NOT put the tweeters in the pillars.The direction and acoustic refraction of the location for stock pillars does NOT work.You will not get any imaging or front presence from the tweeters if you locate them in the stock location in the pillars.
If you modify the pillar location with some work to get the tweeters to fire more off the windshield yes mount them in the pillars.If not locate them on the dash or better yet in the door panels.

Door panels have lots of room as the factory mid woofer is a LOT DEEEEPER than the Hertz, the depth is not a issue
 

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Thanks! And did the holes for the speakers line up ok and fit properly over the speaker openings in the door? In my other car I had to gut the factory speakers to use the stock speaker surround as an adaptor to mount my Hertz. I can be flexible on tweeter placement if it seems to make that big of a difference. I'll take my time and move them around and see which location sounds bet to me and make it work.

Did you connect your Hertz crossovers at all?

I"ll probably tackle this project sooner that later. But I need to start a thread about what my options are regarding ANC. Should I stick an amplified DVC sub in there, run it up to the head unit, and call it a day? If someone could assure me this setup would work without completely destroying the ANC system and functionality I would start tomorrow! Really need some more info around here on upgrading all stereo equipment while retaining ANC...
 

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Replaced the front and rear door speakers in my 2011 Equinox LTZ this past weekend. I put in Infinity Reference 6032cf 6.75" 2-way Speakers, which I purchased through Crutchfield. Removing the door panels and installing the speakers went fairly easy once I figured out what I was doing. They did not have a installation mastersheet, but tech support over the phone was very helpful in walking me through what I needed to do.

The speakers have good bass, but I really enjoy the crisp highs that the tweeters put out. The Pioneer unit has plenty of power to push these speakers.

The only problem is that since installing the speakers I hear a low bass rumble for a few seconds when first starting the car up. Does not occur any other time. It does not occur when the key is in the accessory position and listening to the radio, or turning on the radio when it is parked/off. I suspect that it has something to do with the ANC. I tried disconnecting the battery to see if it would reset to the ANC, but that didn't work. Crutchfield tech support had never heard of this happening. The polarity of the speakers are correct. Otherwise, the speakers have made a world of difference to a novice audiophile.
 

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For those of us who may do a speaker swap in the future...how hard were the door panels to pop off and how is it done? Just looking at the panels I don't see any obvious places to start..
 

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Fairly simple to do once you get the hang of it. I would recommend getting a door trim and panel removal tool for helping to pop out the door panels.

Front door panel
1. Pry out screw cover behind door release handle and remove one 7mm screw.
2. Pry out screw cover behind door pull handle and remove two 8mm screws.
3. Pry out sides and bottom of door panel using panel removal tool to release nine clips (they look like Christmas trees) , disconnect harness and door release rod and remove door panel.
4. Remove three 7mm screws securing speaker to door, disconnect harness and remove speaker.

Rear door panel
1. Pry out screw cover behind door release handle and remove one 7mm screw.
2. Starting at rear edge, pry plastic power switch panel which sits in the armrest up and back to release one clip, disconnect harness and remove plastic switch panel.
3. Remove two 10mm screws exposed by removal of power switch panel.
4. Pry out sides and bottom of door panel using panel removal tool to release nine clips, disconnect door release cable and remove door panel.
5. Remove three 7mm screws securing speaker to door, disconnect harness and remove speaker.

Reverse process to reinstall door panels. Be sure that when reinstalling the door panels that the top of the door panel fits over the top lip of the door. Lining up the clips properly will ensure a tight seal all the way around.
 

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hotcoff said:
Fairly simple to do once you get the hang of it. I would recommend getting a door trim and panel removal tool for helping to pop out the door panels.

Front door panel
1. Pry out screw cover behind door release handle and remove one 7mm screw.
2. Pry out screw cover behind door pull handle and remove two 8mm screws.
3. Pry out sides and bottom of door panel using panel removal tool to release nine clips (they look like Christmas trees) , disconnect harness and door release rod and remove door panel.
4. Remove three 7mm screws securing speaker to door, disconnect harness and remove speaker.

Rear door panel
1. Pry out screw cover behind door release handle and remove one 7mm screw.
2. Starting at rear edge, pry plastic power switch panel which sits in the armrest up and back to release one clip, disconnect harness and remove plastic switch panel.
3. Remove two 10mm screws exposed by removal of power switch panel.
4. Pry out sides and bottom of door panel using panel removal tool to release nine clips, disconnect door release cable and remove door panel.
5. Remove three 7mm screws securing speaker to door, disconnect harness and remove speaker.

Reverse process to reinstall door panels. Be sure that when reinstalling the door panels that the top of the door panel fits over the top lip of the door. Lining up the clips properly will ensure a tight seal all the way around.
WOW hotcoff this is VERY valuable information, thanks a lot for sharing!! For those that have upgraded or plan to upgrade soon, try to snap a few pics and post em up, thanks!
 
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