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Just to play devil's advocate, perhaps the diagonal application of the wheel weight actually shows some ingenuity on the part of the wheel balancer to get the needed weight on the part of the rim that needs it, not "spread out" over the areas that don't.
That's what I was thinking as well since they were road force balanced as opposed to simple spin balancing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
@arcee : But who's ever seen that done before? Did the guy "re-invent the wheel (balancing)" here, or was this something that, in the end, really didn't matter one way or the other, so he just left it in the "more interesting" orientation thinking "Wait 'til somebody sees this!"
 

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@arcee : But who's ever seen that done before? Did the guy "re-invent the wheel (balancing)" here, or was this something that, in the end, really didn't matter one way or the other, so he just left it in the "more interesting" orientation thinking "Wait 'til somebody sees this!"
Who knows? Hopefully a tech wouldn't play a game like that. The next time I get tires, the next tech might see that and say "Wow, who is the jacka-- that put that on there?! What a goof!" So the previous guy just makes himself and the shop look bad if he played that game.

The amount of weight being used by that strip isn't insignificant, and there are no weird vibrations, so it is probably OK. But it does look goofy. I am not a fan of the 3M wheel weights like that and would prefer the traditional chiclet style stick-on weights. The 3M weights just like strange in general.

I had my original OEM Michelin tires rebalanced at around 30,000 miles. I went to one Chevy dealer to have them done and they rebalanced them and used the 3M weights after removing the OEM chiclet weights. Then I was noticing vibration, so I went to my usual Chevy dealer. They noted that 2 of the tires were way out of balance, and road force balanced them. They also used the 3M weights. The vibration largely went away. Then at 42,000 miles when I had the Coopers put on I went to my usual Chevy dealer for the install and they road force balanced and again used the 3M weights [at which point I saw that goofy placement of one of the weights]. I almost immediately went back in to ask about that weight, but the dealer tends to get very defensive when you ask questions so I let it go, especially after the ride seemed perfectly fine.

Next tires I get I am going to an actual tire store. I don't necessarily trust either of these Chevy dealers when it comes to tires.
 

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Discussion Starter · #25 ·
So I bring the one wheel back to the Shop today (the one with the Red Dot misaligned with the Valve Stem ... about 2" off). I tell the guy, "let's just line this Red Dot up like the other three, and re-balance it, and then I'll check to see if anything's gotten any better" (I brought the Tire/Wheel in loose again). So he did that. We also discussed the use of "Clip-On" versus "Stick-On" weights. He said they could've used the "Stick-On" weights, but they just always use the "Clip-On"s if the rim has a lip to attach them (so they just "Default" to using the "Clip-On"s ... unless the Customer tells them otherwise, apparently).

He also said he'd re-balance them with the "Stick-On"s if I wanted that (and we may be headed for that before this is over).

So what I'm gonna do now is just bolt this re-balanced 18" Tire/Wheel back back on and see if the vibration problem has lessened any (or, hopefully, been eliminated). Something tells me I'm going to be disappointed.

Also, this past weekend, I was (again) noticing a "WHOO-WHOO-WHOO" sound as the tire rotated at low speed. I'd noticed this right after bolting on the new Tires/Wheels, but it was secondary to the vibration issue. It made the noise coming right out of the driveway, and through the subdivision, but seemed to fade, or come and go as I was driving around town. My initial thought was there had to be something up with one or more tires to make this kind of sound because I don't think I was hearing such a sound with the old 17" tires that were removed. Could it be a "new tire" sound??? Is there such a thing??? If so, I've never noticed it!

Fortunately, I still have those tires (on the 17" wheels) ... so if I can repeat this sound ... even over a particular stretch of road, I'm gonna re-mount the best 17" Tire/Wheel in the wheel position I think the noise is coming from, then re-drive over that same stretch of road to see if the noise is still there. And then maybe even rotate this 17" Tire/Wheel through all four positions - if necessary - to see what that might reveal. And I can do this because I purposely sized the 18" Tires to have the same circumference as the 17"s (and not the original 18's that came on the vehicle from the factory).
 

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The patterns on the tires may produce funny sound. Snow tires on dry pavement definitely sound like octopus walking on the road. Puck, puck, puck....
 

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Just to play devil's advocate, perhaps the diagonal application of the wheel weight actually shows some ingenuity on the part of the wheel balancer to get the needed weight on the part of the rim that needs it, not "spread out" over the areas that don't.
Computer balancer shows weight placement on inside and outside of rim. Going back to my old tire jockey days that inner/outer weight placement is usually close together. Diagonal placement probably satisfied both readings and was a use of less weight on the wheel. IMO good thinking, we didn't have stick on weights back then.
 

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Discussion Starter · #28 ·
A co-worker just had a set of Pirelli tires put on a fully-loaded Ford Edge. Couldn't believe it, but apparently due to the size of the tire (21") and its low-profile ... there was nothing available that wasn't around $300+ per tire! YIKES!

But he did find these Pirellis at Tire Rack for $170/tire (more on that below). Had them shipped to a local tire shop, and when they mounted them they put the Red Dot 180 degrees from the Valve Stem (instead of right on the Valve Stems, like with my tires).

So we have two local tire Shops interpreting the Red Dot differently.

They used the stick-on weights, BTW, and charged him extra for it !

I think I mentioned above that my Uniroyals came in with a 3021 date stamp. I thought that was bad. My co-worker's Pirellis (from Tire Rack) have a 2019 build date!
 

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So much for the Tire Rack ''approved'' installation expert.
 

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A co-worker just had a set of Pirelli tires put on a fully-loaded Ford Edge. Couldn't believe it, but apparently due to the size of the tire (21") and its low-profile ... there was nothing available that wasn't around $300+ per tire! YIKES!

But he did find these Pirellis at Tire Rack for $170/tire (more on that below). Had them shipped to a local tire shop, and when they mounted them they put the Red Dot 180 degrees from the Valve Stem (instead of right on the Valve Stems, like with my tires).

So we have two local tire Shops interpreting the Red Dot differently.

They used the stick-on weights, BTW, and charged him extra for it !

I think I mentioned above that my Uniroyals came in with a 3021 date stamp. I thought that was bad. My co-worker's Pirellis (from Tire Rack) have a 2019 build date!
3021 means the tires were manufactured during the 30th week of 2021. That is only 7 or so months old. Perfectly normal and not old at all.

Tire Rack sells a lot of tires, but probably not a lot of 21" tires. They also frequently have tires on sale on their site as "closeouts" which will be the older stock. Not surprising the tires were only $170/ea being 3 years old.

There are numerous tire options in the Ford Edge 265/40R21 size at way less than $300/tire if you are willing to try a 2nd tier tire brand. If only shopping Michelin or other premium brands than yes that size is expensive.

The red dot/yellow dot thing really only comes in to play when there is a problem balancing a tire or there is an excessive amount of weight needed for balance. If that is the case, then it makes sense to remount the tire taking the dot in to consideration. It would be nice if all installers used it from the start, but most don't.
 

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Discussion Starter · #31 ·
So much for the Tire Rack ''approved'' installation expert.
Forgot to mention ... they also hit him up for a $110 Wheel Alignment. Bought brand new, the vehicle has only been on the road for like 18 months ... so how far off (in the dry, sunny south) could that alignment have been "off"?

So if the Tire Shops aren't selling you the tires, they're whacking you with all kinds of add-on costs to get their money that way (jacking up the mounting/balancing fees, charging extra for "stick-on" weights, and up-selling unnecessary alignments ... and probably other parts, too).

And here's another angle I suspect is also going on: I wonder if some of these online Tire Sellers are contacting your selected Installer and asking them if they already have the requested Tires in stock locally ... and then they're working some kind of deal out that way? And maybe even some of these online Tire Sellers are really just Brokers connecting buyers with local Sellers/Installers ... essentially providing a web front-end for them?

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@arcee Yeah, I know what a Tire Manufacture Date of 3021 means, but in the past, all the tires I've ever bought were made in the current year. I guess I was always buying later in the year? Can't remember, off-hand. But a 2019 Build Date (on the Pirelli tires my co-worker got) is ridiculous! And, of course, there was no mention of that up-front!

You're correct about the tire size for his Ford Edge (265/40R21), but they're "ZR" "105Y" stamped? He bought the P-ZERO's at closeout for $177/each. If you sort by Price-LowestToHighest, the very next tire is the Bridgestone Alenza AS Ultra for $244.99/each (a 40% price increase!). I'll say this, though ... going from the Pirelli P-ZERO (UTQG: 220) to the Alenza gives you a substantial bump in UTQG (800) ... so there's that (if these numbers are even to be trusted, that is). For $68 more each tire ( $272 + tax delta), you should get a couple more years out of them!
 

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Forgot to mention ... they also hit him up for a $110 Wheel Alignment. Bought brand new, the vehicle has only been on the road for like 18 months ... so how far off (in the dry, sunny south) could that alignment have been "off"?

So if the Tire Shops aren't selling you the tires, they're whacking you with all kinds of add-on costs to get their money that way (jacking up the mounting/balancing fees, charging extra for "stick-on" weights, and up-selling unnecessary alignments ... and probably other parts, too).

And here's another angle I suspect is also going on: I wonder if some of these online Tire Sellers are contacting your selected Installer and asking them if they already have the requested Tires in stock locally ... and then they're working some kind of deal out that way? And maybe even some of these online Tire Sellers are really just Brokers connecting buyers with local Sellers/Installers ... essentially providing a web front-end for them?

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@arcee Yeah, I know what a Tire Manufacture Date of 3021 means, but in the past, all the tires I've ever bought were made in the current year. I guess I was always buying later in the year? Can't remember, off-hand. But a 2019 Build Date (on the Pirelli tires my co-worker got) is ridiculous! And, of course, there was no mention of that up-front!

You're correct about the tire size for his Ford Edge (265/40R21), but they're "ZR" "105Y" stamped? He bought the P-ZERO's at closeout for $177/each. If you sort by Price-LowestToHighest, the very next tire is the Bridgestone Alenza AS Ultra for $244.99/each (a 40% price increase!). I'll say this, though ... going from the Pirelli P-ZERO (UTQG: 220) to the Alenza gives you a substantial bump in UTQG (800) ... so there's that (if these numbers are even to be trusted, that is). For $68 more each tire ( $272 + tax delta), you should get a couple more years out of them!
You can't really compare UTQG's across different brands. That measurement is within the same brand. A 220 Pirelli just means that particular Pirelli might last 2.2x longer than the Pirelli tire used for reference testing for the DOT. The 800 Bridgestone may last 8x longer than Bridgestone's DOT reference tire.

There are "budget" options available at other online retailers. For example,


View attachment 18637

View attachment 18639

The Lexani is a 320AA tire with a 30,000 mile warranty. The Lionhart is also 320AA with a 30,000 mile warranty. Either would work for anyone that needed tires and didn't want to spend over $1000.

It is typically recommended to get an alignment when having new tires installed. That's not an unreasonable recommendation by a tire installer.
 

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If your previous tires have worn out with no show of need for an alignment, then would you still get an alignment, or is this just a money grab by the installer ?

Also, I didn't know that the UTQG can only be used to compare tires by the same manufacturer. I will have to research that before believing you !
 

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If your previous tires have worn out with no show of need for an alignment, then would you still get an alignment, or is this just a money grab by the installer ?

Also, I didn't know that the UTQG can only be used to compare tires by the same manufacturer. I will have to research that before believing you !
I always get an alignment with new tires, unless I know I am getting rid of the vehicle within a year or so after getting the new tires. If I am spending $600+ for new tires, what is another $100 to make sure they don't wear unevenly.

Here is a Tire Rack article about UTQG. https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=48

From the article:
"The reason the Treadwear grade may not be incredibly reliable is twofold. First, since the tires are only run for 7,200 miles, the tire manufacturers have to extrapolate the remainder of the data, and that can be open to some interpretation. Second, the tire manufacturers are allowed to under-report the Treadwear grade, just not over-report it. So if a tire technically may be able to achieve a 700 rating, the manufacturer (primarily the marketing department) might want to report it as 400 to make it "fit" better in a certain market segment. As a result, it is generally only somewhat helpful to compare Treadwear grades on tires from the same manufacturer, and we don’t recommend comparing grades between different brands."

Considering the UTQG is determined and assigned by the manufacturer themselves using their own tires, it is impossible to determine how the ratings compare to other manufacturers.
 

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Discussion Starter · #35 ·
@arcee: You know what (??) ... sometimes absolute accuracy isn't as important as relative accuracy.

If you're someone with a blood pressure problem, and all you have is a relatively inexpensive blood pressure monitoring device ... you may not get as accurate a reading as you'd like, but you can still see the relative change from day to day ... which is just as important.

So UTQG might be self-assigned and biased, but in the case of my co-worker, it was Pirelli versus Bridgestone with UTQGs of 200 versus 800. OK, you can argue about the reliability of those numbers, but with that great a difference in number, you at least know you're looking at two tires with totally different lifespans.

And how many people buy tires without paying attention to the UTQG number, have those tires wear out on them after only 30,000 miles, then badmouth the tire manufacturer the rest of their life?

So we can agree that UTQG is not the "be-all-end-all" ... but it's still a useful tool in deciding which tires you're going to buy.

I mean ... what else is there to go on ... price ... and what (???) .... Warranty Mileage?
 

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I mean ... what else is there to go on ... price ... and what (???) .... Warranty Mileage?
Price
Brand reputation
Previous experience
Availability
Customer reviews
Consumer magazine ratings/reviews
Country of manufacture
Tire type (3-season, all-season, touring, high performance, summer, etc.)
Tread pattern
Warranty
 

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Interesting read this thread. I knew about the "dots".

And I also knew that if you want wheel weights like the inner wheel surface factory weights you need to ask for them and make sure it is written on the service order. It is better to go with a reputable tire installer rather than the cheapest one.

The last time I had tires put on my 2010 truck in 2016 I asked for inner wheel weights.
The shop installed rim weights. I was more than disappointed. They offered to take off the rim weights and put on inner wheel weights.
They KNEW most people would not ask. I told the guy, "The damage is already done. Why would I want scratched rims where the rim weights would leave deep gouges in the rim ? ! "

So, the next time I went to my dealer . .. who offers and matches the same tire price or better than the cheap places. .. .I asked for and got the inner wheel weights on the car.
 

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And how many people buy tires without paying attention to the UTQG number, have those tires wear out on them after only 30,000 miles, then badmouth the tire manufacturer the rest of their life?
Not sure the last time I have even looked at the UTQG numbers truthfully? I know we have Michelin CrossClimate2 on my wife's Terrain and I have absolutely no idea what the UTQG numbers are for those. The last three sets of tires put on my car....no idea on those either.

Price
Brand reputation
Previous experience
Availability
Customer reviews
Consumer magazine ratings/reviews
Country of manufacture
Tire type (3-season, all-season, touring, high performance, summer, etc.)
Tread pattern
Warranty
This right here is where the majority of my focus goes. I put more weight on professional reviews than almost anything else. Repeatable and direct comparisons with actual numbers to back the rankings. Combine that feedback with customer reviews and pricing, pick my budget, and then pick my tires.
 

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Discussion Starter · #40 ·
Price
Brand reputation
Previous experience
Availability
Customer reviews
Consumer magazine ratings/reviews
Country of manufacture
Tire type (3-season, all-season, touring, high performance, summer, etc.)
Tread pattern
Warranty
Brand Reputation : I don't know ... most people would say Michelin tires are great, high-quality tires. I certainly would. I got 175,000 miles out of two sets of "Latitudes". But "Latitudes" on trucks suffered sidewall blowouts and had to be recalled. And what about the crappy Michelin "Premier LTX" tires that people complained about on later GM vehicles (Acadia, for example) ... wearing out after less than 40,000 miles? I don't think you can blindly trust a brand name anymore.

Tread Pattern: I've often wondered about Tread Design ... but came to the conclusion that it largely doesn't matter. Maybe some make more noise than others ... I wouldn't doubt that, but I just look at Tread Depth. Seems more concrete to me. The design is largely just that ... design: A slanted, chunky "island" of rubber over here ... some dimples over there ... and some slits to wick the water away. Might as well be the work of "It's Your World" Bob Ross! :ROFLMAO:

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But anyway ... I took a test ride on the new Uniroyal 18's today, paying close attention to the steering wheel and vibration in general. At 55 mph the steering wheel was moving (on its own) as if I had my hands at 9 and 3 o'clock and was "milking a cow"! Is that balancing, or a bad tire?? Seems like the latter to me.

Then I got back home, swapped the old 17" Michelins back on, drove the same stretch of road at the same speed .... and no movement of the steering wheel!

So there's something up with at least one of these tires ... and probably more than that: the tires might be bad, the balancing might be bad, the Balancing Machine might be bad, the people operating the Balancing Machine might be bad ... OMG!! ... who knows??

I'm going to clean the wheels up really good ... stripping off all the gummy stuff that was left after the original, factory "stick-on" weights were removed, and tell them to try again ... this time using the stick-ons. And if that fails, the tires are coming off the rims, I'm getting a refund of the whole thing ... and I'll try again elsewhere.
 
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