Full Volume Oil Change - Oil Sample Pics - TerrainForum.net: GMC Terrain Forum
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post #1 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-05-2020, 08:18 PM Thread Starter
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Full Volume Oil Change - Oil Sample Pics

Machinery Lubrication publication is wealth of information on lubrication, filtration and maintenance, not just for large industrial application but also for commercial and consumer vehicles.

I had not heard about Full Volume Oil changes before and always wondered about the affects used oil remaining in the engine has on the new oil. Members on the Bob Is the Oil Guy, suggested running another quart of oil after the drain to rid a little more from the pan. What about the rest of the oil in the engine. My first engine re-build was in 1984. It was a Ford 289 V-8, rocker arm valve, solid lifters, and single camshaft. We found only a small amount of oil in the gallery and pump during tear-down. Not the case for these modern engines where 10-20% oil remains in the engine.

https://www.machinerylubrication.com...me-oil-changes

The article is very informative and describes the possible contamination of the new oil due to the partial oil drain and refill.

Below are pics of oil samples showing the color and clarity of the oil in each case. Samples taken from the middle of the sump using a vacuum pump.

Picture #1 is of the virgin oil sample.

Picture #2 is the same glass vile with a mixture of approximate 10% used oil and 90% new oil after 15 miles of operation.

Picture #3 is the same glass vile with a sample of oil after a Full Volume Oil Change (99%), and 15 miles of operation. Change in color due to 1% dilution of old oil.

Picture #4 is the same oil after 300 miles of operation. The oil is a bit darker due to normal use and exposure to higher temps.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Amsoil SS 5W30 - New.jpg (413.3 KB, 19 views)
File Type: jpg AC Delco 10% Old + Amsoil SS New.jpg (428.8 KB, 17 views)
File Type: jpg Amsoil SS 5W30 - 15 miles.jpg (459.0 KB, 16 views)
File Type: jpg Amsoil SS 5W30 - 300 miles.jpg (454.6 KB, 15 views)

Last edited by sydnesb; 01-05-2020 at 08:21 PM.
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post #2 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-05-2020, 08:28 PM
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Interesting comparison. I didn't realize there was that much "trapped" oil in modern engines. Like you, I'm more familiar with the old school small block Chevy and Ford engineering and almost complete drain when changing oil. With that background, I would definitely stay away from using oil that was sold as a combination of "old/recycled" and new oil; without FVOC there is going to be dilution within crankcase anyway.

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post #3 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-05-2020, 09:05 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by c&wsinbad View Post
Interesting comparison. I didn't realize there was that much "trapped" oil in modern engines. Like you, I'm more familiar with the old school small block Chevy and Ford engineering and almost complete drain when changing oil. With that background, I would definitely stay away from using oil that was sold as a combination of "old/recycled" and new oil; without FVOC there is going to be dilution within crankcase anyway.
I posed my first thread about new/used blend to show the comparison between actual oil discovered and tested by PQIA and consumer watch dogs/media reported and the same blending and mixing of oil that occurs during each standard oil change. In the first case, the mix occurs without the knowledge of the customer or the negative and long term affects.
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post #4 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-06-2020, 05:32 AM
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Not the case for these modern engines where 10-20% oil remains in the engine.
I think those estimates are very high. What you are implying is that on a 5 quart sump there can be anywhere from 1/2 to 1 quart of oil left in the engine. Only leaving the filter on would you have that much oil left in the engine.
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post #5 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-06-2020, 11:38 AM
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I think those estimates are very high. What you are implying is that on a 5 quart sump there can be anywhere from 1/2 to 1 quart of oil left in the engine. Only leaving the filter on would you have that much oil left in the engine.

Agree. . . seems a bit high but possibly on some engines. Not all have turbos and/or other areas where a lot of oil would remain. Speculating on how much oil remains in a particular engine, is just that.

Besides as another example . . many Harley motorcycles have about a 2.5 quart oil capacity with a "dry sump" crankcase. The "dry sump" and connections can hold 1 quart or about 40% of the oil still in the bottom of the engine when oil is changed by draining the separate oil tank and changing the filter.

There are ways of doing a FVOC, but most owners and Harley dealers just drain and fill the oil tank. Now that is a kind of worse case scenario. The point is, those cycles have been doing fine with the recommended oil changes.

I suppose if an owner wants to max out mileage and longevity go for a FVOC. However, there are owners of +2010 cars and trucks ( with GDI engines) with over +150K miles on the engines and the engines do not use significant oil with doing reasonable and regular oil change intervals. In other words, not going down to 0% on the DIC Oil Life Monitor. I do not remember going any lower than 30% and most often is above 40% at 4K to 5K miles when I normally do an oil change.

And I always drained the Equinox and all my vehicles level . .. remove the drain bolt and lower to let it drain or even tip it with the jack a bit towards wherever the drain bolt is on the oil pan.


Even with full Pennzoil synthetic and changing the oil every 4K to 5K miles, I've had a few Blackstone UOA and metal and wear is well below their safe figures with fuel dilution well under 1% as reported by them on our 3.6L V6 2015 Equinox.
It would seem most owners would do fine just observing a good traditional oil change regimen. No need to scare people making them think regular drain and fill oil changes aren't sufficient.
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post #6 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-06-2020, 11:55 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by rjayl View Post
I think those estimates are very high. What you are implying is that on a 5 quart sump there can be anywhere from 1/2 to 1 quart of oil left in the engine. Only leaving the filter on would you have that much oil left in the engine.
What do you base your opinion on?

Not implying, confirmed by my GM tech after they did the piston/ring replacement on my 2.4L. They removed and cleaned the sump, removed and flushed the timing cover with integrated oil pump, and I had the head completely cleaned and serviced. The main oil gallery after the pump is large, which also was drained, and there are three galleries in the head alone providing oil to both cams/lifters and the VVT system. There is a restrictor orifice in the head, leading from the main gallery, and is used to prevent draining when the engine is off, and limit pressure fluctuation when the engine is in operation. The tech needed to add 5.6 quarts of oil to bring it up to the proper level on the dipstick.

Other members on BITOG checked their factory service manuals for their vehicles and it listed oil capacity of the engine for rebuilding, not just drain and refills. It varied between .5 and 1 quart difference or more. The GM SI for this engine does not list it as far as I could find.

The GM V-6 is a 6 quart system, and has two banks, 4 cams, and 3 oil galleries in each head, and probably a larger capacity pump and main oil gallery. It likely retains 10-12%.

When someone takes their vehicle in for an oil change, they do not elevate the front of the vehicle or allow more than a few minutes of draining. I have been able to consistantly get an extra 8oz of oil out of the engine by elevating and long drain intervals of two hours.
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post #7 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-06-2020, 01:14 PM Thread Starter
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There you go again, making wild accusations that I am "scaring" people. I thought you were going to ignore my posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JayTee2014 View Post
Agree. . . seems a bit high but possibly on some engines. Not all have turbos and/or other areas where a lot of oil would remain.

You opinion and speculation is based on what.....

The majority of oil is in the head, pump, and oil galleries especially with VVT.


Besides as another example . . many Harley motorcycles have about a 2.5 quart oil capacity with a "dry sump" crankcase. The "dry sump" and connections can hold 1 quart or about 40% of the oil still in the bottom of the engine when oil is changed by draining the separate oil tank and changing the filter.

There are ways of doing a FVOC, but most owners and Harley dealers just drain and fill the oil tank. Now that is a kind of worse case scenario.

Harley's are known for the reliability and longevity, correct? A FVOC is very easy on a Harley, and many owners do perform it.

Here is link to video showing what the residual oil looks like coming out of a harley engine during a FVOC. You really want to mix that with your brand new oil.


https://youtu.be/bHxYuvm6Kuc

I suppose if an owner wants to max out mileage and longevity go for a FVOC. However, there are owners of +2010 cars and trucks ( with GDI engines) with over +150K miles on the engines and the engines do not use significant oil with doing reasonable and regular oil change intervals. In other words, not going down to 0% on the DIC Oil Life Monitor. I do not remember going any lower than 30% and most often is above 40% at 4K to 5K miles when I normally do an oil change.

Owners who trade in their vehicles after warranty ends or never go over 100k, like yourself, this is probably a non issue. Oil consumption and premature wear in GDI engines is major issue with many makes and models. Suggest you do more research and update your information.

And I always drained the Equinox and all my vehicles level . .. remove the drain bolt and lower to let it drain.


Even with full Pennzoil synthetic and changing the oil every 4K to 5K miles, I've had a few Blackstone UOA and metal and wear is well below their safe figures with fuel dilution well under 1% as reported by them on our 3.6L V6 2015 Equinox.

A few samples on one vehicle. Does not hold up to your own standard for sample size. The 500 samples I obtained show a siginficant increase in engine wear rate with 2.4L GDI engines compared with non-GDI of the same engine class. I have documented 1.5% fuel dilution after only 20 miles of operation due to fluid mixing in my own engine.

Blackstone makes no distinction between older engines with port injection and newer engines with GDI when they provide their universal averages. The averages encompass many engine generations and many years. The flashpoint test for fuel has been deemed unreliable and abandoned by the industry for years. They now use Gas Chromotography. I and others have sent identical samples to BSL and other labs using GC, and their results are way off, up to 3 times lower. BSL consistantly under reports actual fuel dilution due to the outdated process.

It would seem most owners would do fine just observing a good traditional oil change regimen. No need to scare people making them think regular drain and fill oil changes aren't sufficient.
Informing and educating people about improved maintenance and testing for better performance and longevity is not "scare" tactics. Owners will run a solvent based flush in an engine, and leave up to 10% in the engine for the next 3-7K miles. Now that is scary, more so with added fuel dilution in GDI engines. For the same price or less, they can do a FVOC.

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post #8 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-06-2020, 01:33 PM
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My reply was directed to another forum member who I was agreeing with. It doesn't matter who agrees or disagrees with a matter if it differs from yours. Things do not have to be argued endlessly.

No need to dissect, interrogate and badger members replies till they agree with you.
It's a forum. Let others choose to have their own views.

If you do not like or agree with my reply to another member, you can and should ignore it as has been advised to you.


Again . . you have your views in "educating and informing", and others have theirs. Please. . again there is no need to start badgering and harassing my comments again.
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post #9 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-06-2020, 02:19 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JayTee2014 View Post
My reply was to another forum member who i was agreeing with. It doesn't matter who agrees or disagrees with a matter if it differs from yours. Things do not have to be argued endlessly till some agrees with you. It's a forum. Let others choose to have their own views.


If you do not like or agree with my reply to another member, you can and should ignore it as has been advised to you.


Again . . you have your views in "educating and informing", and others have theirs. Please. . again their is no need to start badgering and harassing my comments again.
The other member was responding to my thread and asked me for clarification about the amount of residual oil remaining in a typical engine.

You agreed with an opinion but once again provided no evidence or facts to support your speculation, and then go on to highjack the thread, provide unrelated information in response to my OP, and then making accusations that I am "scaring" people. Whatever animosity you have towards me, get over it.

Rather than refute the information or support your opinion, you suggest I ignore your response, and then claim you are a victim when I provided contrary, relevant information. I took your advice and went back and looked at many of your posts, you have a history of highjacking threads, interrrupting conversations, accusing others of the very things you do yourself, dismissing others ideas and suggestions, and even accused multiple members of stalking you, which you know is false and did with malice, in public. That advice to ignore posts was directed at you as well, unless you missed that part.
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post #10 of 25 (permalink) Old 01-06-2020, 05:04 PM
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Nope. .. member was not asking a question or for clarification. And there is no quote with your forum ID in his posting. He was stating what his view is. See the post below.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjayl View Post
I think those estimates are very high (10-20% oil remains in the engine) .

What you are implying is that on a 5 quart sump there can be anywhere from 1/2 to 1 quart of oil left in the engine. Only leaving the filter on would you have that much oil left in the engine.
He was stating what his opinion is and why.
So I agreed and also commented.






Totally false about malice involved. More twisting and interpretation on your part.
The animosity seems to be all yours and fact you "looked back at many" of my posts speaks volumes.

And as far as support of anyone's opinion it is a forum . . no one needs any as my comment was not a debate with you. Plus, it would only continue with endless bickering since you likely would not accept any other source or reasoning other than your own as you have done repeatedly with others as well. So they just quit. Remarks such as " Thanks for confirming that you are set in your ways. Age need not be a determinate. "

And again, you mentioned me in another thread with no provocation to which I made no reply.

And just yesterday wanted to know what kind of scanner I used in a comment I made to another member having nothing to do with you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sydnesb View Post
What scan tool are you using and which PID are you monitoring. My UltraGauge and Bosch only shows current timing advance.

Not getting into more knit picking of words used, what kind of equipment is "ok" with you and what may or may not be acceptable to you.
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